Curse

Dinkytowner · Aug 24, 2006, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Warning: I'm somewhat new to GvG and please excuse me if this is a noobish topic.

OK got that off my chest. I have rescently moved from mainly playing HA to diving into GvG. I play an infuser in HA, but after getting my wolf I wanted to take a look in the supposed "high level" competition in GvG. My guild had been running a Steamroller build and is just now switching over to a splitable, more balanced build. We hold our own against most builds (save for higher level guilds, but that's a different topic in and of itself) but seem to have a major problem with spikes. We get to the flag stand and noone seems to know what to do. I manage to save a couple sub-par spikes, but in the end we lose badly. I know that pure spikes like ranger, blood, SB/RI, (NOT ADREN SPIKES) should be scrub builds in GvG and a well organized team should be able to take them down. My problem is I just can't figure out how to go about this. In HA I can just rely on my personal reflexes to save the team because Infuse Health is sitting on my bar. I just can't really get myself to take infuse into a GvG due to it's high cost and low utility in most battles.

My question here is twofold:

What to do as a monk when up against a spike in GvG? (I run a Mo/A BL monk, but I'm also curious what to do with a boonie in these situations, though.)

What kind of team strategies can be used to deal with a pure spike?

Thanks in advance for any help.

DieInBasra · Aug 24, 2006, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Sticking Distracting blow on your warrior, power drain on your mesmers, and maybe changing stuff up to include a cripshot ranger help.

As a monk what you can do for a pure spike is very limited, other then maybe preprot as you see all 5 of them stare on of your members down for 2 seconds.

Other then adding more interupts, maybe some edenial as well, if you build can split, do it. Spike usually can't split, and if they can, they're extreamly vulnerable to disruption. Hold ctrl down before the battle, and if you don't see any warriors or pets, split. I actually don't know if a direct 4/4 would be better then the usual 5/3, but I think it would. If you can get keep morale, or even get it a few times, you should be able to wear them down. Vs most spike it's an equation of there energy and health vs your resigs.

Fanta · Aug 24, 2006, 07:31 PM // 19:31

If your facing a pure spike build you really want to split, unless you already have the necessary tools to deal with it *mass interruption*. If you are running a balanced build you should already be able to split, depending on your build you can do a 6/2 5/3 or 4/4. This ultimately gets rid of their heavy spike and they won't have enough dps to kill any of your splits since most full spike teams rely on all players to be there for the spike.

If your in a situation where you just can't split and they are caster spike or ranger spike, as a monk, you can position in their face and watch their movement up close so you know "exactly" who on your team is going to be spiked and can prepare for it. Also make sure you watch one of the spikers so you know when the spike is coming.

If you are dealing with a balanced adrenal spike, best thing first is make sure one monk has prot spir and other spirit bond. Then, make sure you are watching enemy warriors. Keep track of their adrenaline they are gaining and prepare for them to converge on a target. A W/E with shock can be a good indicator of a spike about to commence, if the target is being converged on. Shock is also a pressure skill, so don't immediately feel the target is being spiked if they get shocked.

I say both monks should have those different prot skills because if you are running the same skill and both cast and it gets shattered, you can be screwed and the still might get a successful kill. They have to use 2 strips to get both prots, and that gives your ally better chances of survival.

So, to you I'd say, try to use prot spirit or spirit bond to save a spike instead of infuse health and practice with it. If you can afford to cover your prot with something like guardian, it can be used as shatter bait to protect the prot spir or spirit bond.

Patrograd · Aug 24, 2006, 07:51 PM // 19:51

The strongest play is to build in spike disruption skills and use them. Takes alot of co-ordination and practise (settled team ftw) but after a while beating the spike becomes second nature. Beat it like you would beat it in HA, there is nothing different about a GvG spike except that in GvG most teams dont build to manage it.

If you cant do that then split, but be aware that getting into a gank race with a spike team isn't a brilliant idea, and alot of spike teams wont bother to chase you around they'll just go straight for your Lord and Bodyguards once they see you split.

Pure spike isnt scrubby. There are loads of teams around in the top of the ladder who will run spike from time to time

twicky_kid · Aug 24, 2006, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Split

Spike teams lose a lot of dmg if they have to split. They cannot pressure your team either so the monk has a rather easy job when you split. You can usually pressure their monk out because most spikes are all soft targets.

Dragannia · Aug 24, 2006, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Like everyone else said, against Ranger and Caster spikes you need to split. Against adrenal spikes you can split, although it's likely the enemy balanced build will also be able to split. Against a balanced spike, there are a number of counters. A Mesmer with a keen eye can Blackout a Warrior as he charges his adrenaline. Distortion on your Monks and Mesmers can prevent a spike quite easily. Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond should also be used, but most balanced builds use Shatter Enchantment as part of their spike.

duanstar · Aug 24, 2006, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Split

Spike teams lose a lot of dmg if they have to split. They cannot pressure your team either so the monk has a rather easy job when you split. You can usually pressure their monk out because most spikes are all soft targets.

I think the fundamental flaw behind that assumption is that the spike team will split once they see you split. A good spike can just take down one of your smaller groups, and then go for your bodyguards. Like Petrograd said, they can just the move into your base after they take down one group and make the game into an 8v4 gank race. Otherwise, they could just come back for the other group; either way, you gain DP, making the battle against spike much much harder.

I think the safer method is just to work on coordinating disruptions to the spikes. Many spikes are fairly tight on damage so if you can stop 1-2 spikers, your monks will have a much easier time stopping it. Splitting also can reduce your extremely vital disruption abilities. Overall, I'd say to just keep up disruption along with presure and you'll eventually overrun them. However, like with anything, there can be exceptions, especially if the spike is very defensive and can hold against pressure well.

Vindexus · Aug 25, 2006, 03:59 AM // 03:59

First thing you do when you realize it's spike is see if you can handle it. Find the the biggest part of the spike (probably PP/Shatter) and make sure that gets interupted. If you are dying faster than they are, send some people into their base to harass their runner and get your Flag Stand group back into your footmen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by duanstar

I think the fundamental flaw behind that assumption is that the spike team will split once they see you split. A good spike can just take down one of your smaller groups, and then go for your bodyguards. Like Petrograd said, they can just the move into your base after they take down one group and make the game into an 8v4 gank race. Otherwise, they could just come back for the other group; either way, you gain DP, making the battle against spike much much harder.

That's not exactly how it works. It varies from map to map; you can't just say that if you split they'll kill your 4 man group and then your Guild Lord.

still.mojo · Aug 25, 2006, 08:56 PM // 20:56

If u split, do preferably small split, 1-2 ppl is enough, and make sure they are able to take runner out, so u can buy boost, and make spikers uneasy.
Main body should be able to stay alive if playing defencive.

Drewfense · Aug 25, 2006, 10:53 PM // 22:53

What everyone posted is true...see if you can take the spike head on (interrupting as much as you can, having everyone remove sups, use ideal armor, team mates fleeing when attacked, et cetera) and then split if necessary, but that doesn't really answer what the monk should do.

With adren spike it is fairly easy, the warriors will tell you the target. BLights and Boon Prots can do an easy ps/sb and the spike is very manageable. The problem comes with caster/ranger spikes. Preproting is much more difficult. One method is to look at who the casters are pointed at. People who use this method are normally BSing to sound leet. You can do this in HoH, but because of the existance of lines in GvG, your party is naturally funneled togethor and 90% of the time this is an ineffective method. The more reliable tells are to look for the phantom pain/rigor or the visual of an enchant strip. Also observing who is and isn't in cast ranger, but this becomes unreliable with projectile spikes.

When preprotting fail, your stuck at the situation where your need to bring an ally from almost dead to full health. Spell selection is often crucial for this situation and it is worth planning beforehand. For instance (as a blight), for ranger spike, you have the time for one spell in between the Dual and Punishing. The Punishing will normally not hit 60 damage, so using sb is almost useless. Rather hit RoF which will buy time for you to follow with Gift of Health. Then Sig Devo to bring back to recover.

Edit: I don't think anyone mentioned abusing PvE characters. Have everyone switch to +armor or +health, whatever is best for the situation. Casters and warriors using shields like Geoffer's Bulwark or +10 vs lightning (when that was still popular...) can make a big difference. Also if your a blight, take advantage of positioning and stances. Stay out of range of the spikers so it is obvious if they are coming to spike you. If you have to remain over extended, hit Dark Escape/Distortion right when the spike is coming just in case you might be the target.

Mr Fizzle · Aug 25, 2006, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Personally I say send maybe 3 gankers to their base a melee class,something,and a character with Draw Conditions.Keep 2 monks at the stand with the rest of the team the spike team will either 5/3 reducing their spike dmg at the flag stand or will completly pull back which usaully means morale boost.